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Grace79 |
Pressure to Conform |
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Posts: 7 (06/08/08 07:05:58) |
I loved that student debt thread & it has taken me forever to get back here & reply to it. I felt like Lulu, it was an orgy of "food for
thought." There is just so much to say there, it was getting hard for me to synthesize my thoughts & get them down. After reading & rereading
everyone's posts there, I have a new question. For those of us already introduce to the "gateway drug" of student loans & trapped into the
system how to take the first big, direct steps to get out? What I am talking about here is how to deal w/ the societal pressure to conform & stay in. I
know about eliminating debt & gettin' skillzzz, but how do break it to Ma & Pa or your good, but not like-minded, friends that you are just not
goin' take it anymore? LOL. This is the truly the hard part. To say enough is enough, I'm out, is such a challenge. For many, many people, this
would be the equivalent of declaring myself mentally unfit. Give me your feedback peeps, I'd love to hear it!!
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lulugraphics |
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Posts: 58 (06/08/08 08:18:21) |
This is a tough question. I feel the pressure every day from my family, et al. and especially from myself. And frankly, I'm not so happy having been
unemployed so long, all this free time is a tad too much and reducing my capital by half in the last 5 years to just pay rent and groceries has been a big
drag. I "thought" I'd keep my dropout lifestyle and just make enough to get by on--well, it didn't happen and I'm floundering more than I
did ten years ago. But on the other hand, I've been feeling like really "coming out"on a lot of things lately... the way the numbers don't
add up, the crime of saddling young people and middle-aged people with any of the debts just to have the american "dream," about what poison the
mainstream food is, the bullshit of the AMA, ADA and the insurance industries, the banking industries and also I've been wanting to come out as a pot
smoker. Sounds kind of weird but I do think it's important, especially because I could have ended up a medicated mental health case zombie but used
homeopathy to get off the pharmaceuticals and the pot has helped with my physical aches and pain, migraines, car accident problems and anxiety and depression
with THE LEAST SIDE EFFECTS of anything except the homeopathy. Plus, I kept track, my homeopathy bills and pot bills are WAY LESS than the cost of pharma,
useless therapy, insurance, dr. visits, etc., etc. Not to mention, largest CASH crop in USA, a great venue for small time farmers or cottage industry with
added benefit of subverting the AMA and its attendant structures. But back to the student loan thing--I read John Taylor Gatto's The Underground History of
American Education and his book filled in a MAJOR missing piece of the puzzle for me--as I suspected, the education I got was intended to make me a helpless
drone of the system. And I can't have that! I really want to have some kind of commune and artist colony and that's partly why I'm living with my
mom right now--it's RIDICULOUS and the numbers don't work for me to buy a car, rent an apartment and go back to work--the most cost effective and
socially healthy thing is for me to stay here, help out my mom and mildly sponge off the healthy income and habitat that she has merely through being born at
the right time--oooh and you should see and hear my PWE sisters quiz me on what I'm "going to do." They can't stand it when I say, "wait
and see." No conclusions, here, Grace, just grist for the mill. Great topic, looking forward to reading others responses.
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lulugraphics |
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Posts: 59 (06/08/08 08:31:56) |
another thought--your headline--Pressure to Conform--that says a lot, I feel my main activity in my adult life has been to resist conforming and by not
conforming, I've gotten to the better things in life, awareness, skepticism, free time, real true health, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual. I feel
like I'm at another juncture where I see and hear the old paradigm crumbling to pieces and I get to keep trusting, because that is the only viable mind
space to be in. I noticed this a.m. when I woke up, a time that till recently has been an extremely anxious time for me, that my physical feelings of anxiety
rose and fell with different thoughts. I'd never before been so aware of this, the effect of my thoughts and I'm working to change my thoughts and be
present so I can enjoy and trust in life again. It's a big step, one that has been in the making for at least 20 years.
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phadraigin |
being the trend-setter | ||
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Posts: 38 (06/08/08 11:49:53) |
hi again Grace (and Lulu.) pressure to conform...yoy. there was a time in the early/mid 1990's when i was done with grad school, and had moved with a boyfriend to Madison, WIS. i couldn't get a "real librarian" job there (that is one WAY over-educated town, the taxi drivers have music PhD's, etc.) so i was working part-time as staff at the main public library in town, and part-time as a veterinary tech--which i *really* liked doing! it was zero-prestige (part of my job was mopping floors and cleaning up dog poo, after all!) but i worked for good people, and *with* good people, and taking care of sick animals was very rewarding (i almost went and got an official vet technical degree from the community college there, until my situation changed and i had to move.) but the whole time, when i'd see or talk to family, they were constantly asking me "But, what are your plans? What are you going to DO?" and i just kept saying "I like what i'm doing NOW. i have no plans!" but it was like they couldn't even hear what i said. i lived in GA for a couple years after that, and when i moved back up north to PA and took another library staff job (after having been a "real librarian" in Athens,) i started to get those same questions again. at work the librarians would ask "But don't you want to be a librarian again? Why not?" and the same with my parents. when i did apply for the position i have now, my primary motivation was that i could earn more money to put toward the debt AND get two months OFF every summer! i knew it would be more work, more stress, and less security than the staff job had been, and leave me with less free time during the ten months of the year i work, but i felt i needed to get moving on my debts, and i SO wanted those 8 weeks off every summer! so, right now, no one bothers me about what i'm doing work-wise, because it looks like i'm doing what they expect of me. but i'm clear that after the debt is paid, i will probably work as a very different kind of librarian, and probably earn less money, and have less of a conventional "career". however, i have been more and more open about the toll this position takes on me September thru June, and my desire to live differently once my debt is paid off (i don't say this at work, of course!) most of my friends totally get it. my family...well...not as much, but i've always been their black sheep, they're used to not understanding me or what motivates me, and, thankfully, over time they've come to see how some of the things i've always talked about with them (local food, alternative medicines, cutting expenses to have more free time) are really a better way to live. i generally keep it all on the personal, practical level with them, and avoid larger societal or philosophical issues, and this way there isn't much to argue with! i guess my advice is, just do what you have to do, and explain it in simple, personal terms, and don't try to get into any larger debates about what is the "right" or "better" way to live. no one can really disagree when you just say "This is me, this is how *I* feel, what works or does not work, for ME." people will either get it, or not. but you can't make them understand if they don't, and you have to be prepared to NOT have their support. if this is any consolation, time and reality is on your side...as the economy gets worse, and prices rise, what you are doing will be seen as more and more making sense, as being AHEAD of the game? over the last ten years i have seen so many things that i've always done or believed in become more and more popular, more "mainstream"--hell, if MSNBC is writing about Dumpster Diving, that has to tell you something! lately, i'm trying really hard to teach myself NOT to engage in any Big Picture arguments with anyone about these things. i try to let it slide when people like my father yesterday announce that there is no oil shortage, we just have to drill in Alaska (or whatever) and the gas prices will go back down. i KNOW he's totally wrong, but he gets his information from truly partisan, stupid places like FoxNews and his old work buddies and people at church. they live inside an echo chamber, and they are trying to keep each other's spirits up, i guess, as they deny the reality that is closing in on them? there is no point in pushing them, now. i don't HAVE to--because REALITY is going to take care of that for me. so, it makes more sense for me to work at providing a personal example for them, and when they are ready, they will ask, they will come around. maybe just LIVE the change you want to see happen? re: hemp--i'm sure y'all know the real reason that was made illegal here? it was a threat to completely NON-medical industries. the stuff grows like, well, a WEED, and can be used to replace cotton and a number of other big industry products. no need for pesticides and fertilizers, easy to grow, to harvest...many uses? it's kind of like the war on dandelions--if you read about those, they have many uses, too, and are a GREAT food source, and again, they grow like "weeds" right? how much land has been poisoned, how many lawns, just to try and eradicate them? as well as many other wild, native plants that make great food or medicine. it's all about control, about locking up the food, and directing peoples' energies, keeping them in line and depending on the larger economy to survive. man, i could go on and ON! one more thought on the original question--i think that when people who truly care about you see that YOU are unhappy, and that you need to make the changes you do to your lifestyle, and then they see you are HAPPIER as you make them, they have to accept that. they don't have to become like you, or agree on any larger issue, but just accept that you are who you are. if you had a wheat allergy, for instance, those people would not get mad at your for having a special diet, would they? so, it's kind of the same thing, only about other parts of living. my father actually got nervous when i started taking every extra dollar that was lying around in old savings accounts and whatnot, giving up my car, all just to pay on my debt. he wanted to know what "the hurry" was? and he's SCOTTISH, dammit--he should *genetically* hate and fear ALL debt, right?! but i showed him the interest calculations (like how little my meager savings was earning, versus how much interest the debt grows by,) and then he got it, sort of...enough, anyway. as for your sisters, Lulu, i think partly they feel threatened that you don't buy into the world they are trapped within? for some people, just SEEING someone else live in a way that kind of points out something that is unhealthy about their own beliefs, gets them afraid and angry? there isn't much you can do except be patient with them, be gentle, but HOLD your ground! if you were a recovering alcoholic, and they were still practicing alcoholics, they'd probably be pushing you to DRINK with them! i bet! how would you handle that? i'd treat this all the same way. you are trying to recover from an illness which they don't want to admit they have! i guess i really feel NO pressure now to conform or stay "in"--my pressure is all financial. i'm just used to many people always thinking i'm weird, so that's just normal to me! what i need to learn, is how to stop arguing with them, and just smile and say "oh well" and keep moving the way i want to move, and let them find their own way? you should have seen the abject horror, the disbelief, on my family's faces when after the last car break-down about a year ago, i didn't fix it, and instead let all the paperwork, insurance, everything just lapse! for a while, they kept alerting me to all the "great car loan deals" and to every used car for sale they came across (my father even tried to get me to buy his buddy's old SUV! ack! blah! NEVER!) and the first couple times i made the two-bus, two-hour trip and then walked 1/2 mile at the end to get to my parents' house...HA! you'd have thought i had joined some satanic cult! the BUS?! WALKING!? oh noes! how CAN you?! but i just kept doing it, and now they accept it (well, more and more these days, every time gas goes up again!) |
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lulugraphics |
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Posts: 60 (06/08/08 13:45:46) |
oh, it must be in the air, check this article I just found a few hours after this thread started:
Why Young Americans Should Drop Out From Society.Why Young Americans Should Drop Out From Society. http://madconomist.com/quite-possibly-the-most-unorthodox-piece-of-advice-ever-given-to-the-american-youths Naturalist, are you here? I haven't even finished reading it yet, I had to run over here and post. Yes, the veils are coming off. |
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Grace79 |
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Posts: 8 (06/08/08 16:19:40) |
Wow, Lulu, that article gave me goosebumps. I wish I'd read it about 12 yrs. ago. It could have made all the difference. I hope Naturalist reads it.
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phadraigin |
excellent advice! | ||
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Posts: 39 (06/08/08 17:37:30) |
gee, i feel like i've been saying half of that myself! a few of us here, have been, actually! : ) i would have liked them to go more into detail on some alternative lives, with or without the college degree, but still, very well laid out (and not in a scary way, which is also nice.) i really liked this: "If he does not have this realization, then he will be doomed to see all that happens to him as the result his personal failings: his weakness, lack of talent, inability to fit in, or bad luck. Even if he does have this realization, he will find it difficult to live his life accordingly, because those who lack this realization, and deem themselves successful, will try to denigrate him as a misfit or a loser."been there! but you know, those kinds of judgements are not limited to "conventional" people--i've heard some of those same things from people who would consider themselves to be the most alternative, "dropped-out" folks around. but unless you have walked in someone else's shoes, you just do not know, you have no right to judge them. live my life, THEN tell me how you'd do it better! i sure hope this braveness to delay, skip, or find a free way to attend college, becomes a trend (even though it means my own job will be more endangered, sooner.) i just don't want to see any more kids fall into the kind of trap that caught me, and so many others! thanks for the link! |
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The Naturalist |
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Posts: 13 (06/08/08 17:41:32) |
AHA!!! This is the advice that I have been needing. Lulu, you could not have posted this at a better time. Lately, I have been thinking hard about my future, but have been unable to think of anything but a black or white solution. Either I go to college, maybe with a gap year before, and jump through the hoops while trying to stay alive, or I take the risk and opt out. Neither is satisfactory. I can't believe I didn't think of it myself! Why not drop out and go to college at the same time? Go to college to learn; forget about the degree. The middle path! |
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lulugraphics |
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Posts: 61 (06/09/08 05:11:41) |
YES! I hadn't thought of it that way, drop out AND go to college AT THE SAME TIME, you are a genius, Naturalist. The best thing two things about college
are finally getting access to some real information and meeting people. It's the best place for a young person to find all different kinds of
relationships: romance, sex, mentors, like-minded health food eaters, drinking buddies, sometimes even people from countries outside the U.S., gasp, a
non-homogenous pool of people to socialize with.
Phadragin, that same paragraph really spoke to me too. I kept reading it and thinking, this guy knows what he's talking about. |
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Grace79 |
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Posts: 9 (06/09/08 12:39:17) |
Yep, that same paragraph was the one that got me too Phadragin & Lulu. I thought, "Holy Shizzz, this guy is reading the minds of me & my
husband!!!" It was an excellent article, a few more details & you'd just about have a perfect how-to manual.
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phadraigin |
questioning always | ||
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Posts: 40 (06/09/08 17:00:23) |
what's scary, is how much we internalize these judgements without questioning them, especially as children and young adults. some people never do realize that they may have these thoughts about themselves which were never their own! and you can't move beyond those kinds of walls and traps, if you can't even see them. and it never ends--we pick things up all the time. and something that worked for one time in our lives, under one set of circumstances, may totally be hamstringing us later on. you have to always go back and try to look at these things with an objective, critical eye: what do i believe? why? has anything changed, or has new information come to me, that should make me re-evaluate this belief? |
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xscoutx |
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Posts: 9 (06/12/08 10:43:41) Moderator |
phad~ "just live the change you want to see happen"...that really is important. ugh how easy is it to get depressed looking around at the masses! so
yeah being the change is, well, its not all we can do, but it sure is encouraging.
as for 'coming out' to family....well my partner, thank goodness, is 100 % on board, but my 'family of origin', eh yeah they have had this silly notion all my life that i'm just a weeeee bit different...coming out as someone who no longer wishes to be a part of the work-consume cycle...yeah that didn't fly with them. oooh the protestant work ethic i'd been dragging around with me! talk about a guilt trip. hell we don't even have a relationship anymore; this was the last straw for them. oddly, i feel so liberated, not having the monkeys on my back any longer. spiritually, i'm able to do so much more and i'm able to put all my creativity toward, well, toward being the change i want to see happen. peace! |
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